frame battle
16 linked references
January 2nd, 2023
- "ping the frame" as a move in frame battle / frame dance
October 13th, 2021
- article re frame battle by Duncan Sabien that I haven't read but I'm sure it's useful even if I disagree
thinking that rejects other thinking
The shift out of thinking that rejects other thinking and… › In general, someone who looks naive to you knows somethin… › But if your relevant knowledge was properly a superset of…
- (It's worth noting that while being unable to convey what you know to them is a strong sign that they know something you don't, the mere fact of having had a conversation that appears to result in you conveying something to them does not prove that you actually had such a superset—more common is that the person you're talking to mentally suppresses some of their own knowings that would produce objections that you don't understand and wouldn't be able to respond effectively to. This requires some amount of knowing what they know, but can also occur for many reasons ranging from charisma to social power to frame battle skill.)
July 19th, 2021
- Aella has some great stuff on frame strength here - a useful different angle on frame battle / frame override
- > It's fuzzy, but I have some faint idea of a specific style of frame-strength. Some people tend to carry more gravity than others; it's often super subtle (or sometimes not), it's sometimes damaging but sometimes not - but for whatever reason, when their view of reality collides with a lower-gravity frame, theirs "wins."
- > I don't mean they win on the object level, I mean their frame 'eats' the other frame, even if the disagreement still exists, or if it's just a preference thing; a super oversimplified example if Strong-Frame Steve thinks a hat is amazing, and Weak-Frame Wendy thinks the hat sucks, then it's more likely that Wendy will come away from the interaction being like "I do think the hat sucks, but maybe my hat-suck view comes out of some deeper judgmentalness in me, I wonder why I can't see how cool the hat is?"
- > Whereas Strong Frame Steve won't have a corresponding reaction, *won't* have a subtle check to see if "have I missed how out-of-style this hat is? Is my taste real shallow?" He just.... thinks the hat is cool and moves on.
- > I'm real susceptible to it in individuals too; there've been multiple times where I felt drawn in and really trusting of charismatic strong-frame people because of their strong frame, and then when separated from them/their ideas for a while, I go "wait a damn freaking second, I trusted them because of the frame, not cause of the ideas, and I also lost touch with myself somehow in connection with them."
- [there's more to the post]
- further comments disambiguate:
- > 1. i don't think it's the same as 'frame control', though it's got lots of similarities. Strong Frame feels... maybe closer to an 'absence' of doubt, while frame-control features a lot of active or deliberate moves in a conversation. (I do think ppl who frame-control often usually have Strong Frame, though)
- > 2. I don't think it's the same thing as wanting to please someone in social power; I know several friends in high social statuses who don't have Strong Frames, even if they're largely confident and not insecure.
- > 3. I don't think it's exactly the same thing as self confidence, although it probably has a lot of overlap. I can think of many people who have a ton of self confidence, but who don't feel like they have the Strong Frame effect.
July 7th, 2021
- > The secret message of the virgin-chad memes is that anything can be Chad as long as you don't let your detractors dictate the frame
frame dialogue
- the opposite of frame battle
May 27th, 2021
- Whoa, Lakoff has has a podcast called FrameLab... seems like it's mostly about
April 8th, 2021
- "of course" and "as far as I can tell"
- I'd just been talking for a whole day with a friend about a thing that we both had a ton of shared understanding about, and then later I went to send a message about the same topic, into a DM group, and I almost said "ofc XYZ" and then I was like "whoaaaa wait I do not know this group has anything like an ofc around this" and so I switched it to "afaict XYZ"
- if I'd gone and tried to say "ofc XYZ" with a group for whom that wasn't also obvious then that would have invited a whole frame battle
- but also if I were to only say "afaict XYZ" with someone that I supposedly have common knowledge with about the thing, that would also be sus
March 31st, 2021
- feel really good about this frame battle thread I wrote (see also meta-rationality)
Home
Sharing Home › Any of these might be an utter dealbreaker—it might not b… › NVC has stuff on this re "needs" vs "strategies" › but needs a larger meta-frame like the NNTD to hold it
- otherwise in some low-trust situations it devolves into frame battles that can't easily be talked about within the frame of NVC
March 7th, 2021
- relevant to frame battle - how the world is / seems
February 28th, 2021
I read this article about Scott Alexander and the whole N… › > To make things clear for the fish: humans have a strong…
- this is very related to frame battles
February 20th, 2021
- and had a sense of like, yeah, in the context of trying to do observation-feeling-need-request, there's value in having the feeling be relatively meaning-neutral (eg "sad" rather than eg "abandoned") because it's a kind of weak frame and thus avoids a frame battle in the context of trying to get to the satisfying resolution of the request.
