what is coercion?
13 linked references
December 2nd, 2022
- this is related to my what is coercion? writeup, among other things
September 3rd, 2022
- one thing I was tempted to publish is the "what is coercion?", which I think I might rerame as "a PCT articulation of coercion" or something like that
- so that it's more consciously being a lens rather than making a claim
- I like that
- and then it also makes it feel better that it's incomplete
- I think that more things being lenses is probably good
Podcast summaries
- Keywords - brain hemispheres coercion what is coercion? productivity scapegoat Everyone is basically living in a dream mashup of their current external situation & old emotional meanings everyone is constantly overgeneralizing Conversation As Medium make shared or different frames explicit shared train of thought do people naturally self-regulate how deep they're willing to go? commitment/choice is a confused way to relate to stances/mindsets dream mashups Unlocking the Emotional Brain IFS partswork what might a healthy community look like? doing community well The Master and his Emissary intro left hemisphere right hemisphere Behavior: The Control of Perception Perceptual Control Theory Hemisphere DharmaChange doesn't just happenHemispheres & Self-improvement left hemispheres aren't made for interfacing with other people Perceptual Control Theory control systems
December 10th, 2021
- > i am not a "snake oil salesman." i am merely making information about various snake oils available to you
- more discussions with friends re what is coercion?
- friend > Another note: coercion can be subjective???
- me > Are you pointing here to how like two people in a given situation might experience it one as coercive and the other as not? Yeah what I would say to that is essentially all coercion is like... It's possible to get in a space in your own mind where no matter what happens externally you sort of fundamentally can't be coerced like you are always doing what you in fact want given the external constraints rather than being kind of subject to whatever power dynamics are happening.
- me > And there's an extreme version of that (enlightenment lol?) but it can also show up in more specific situational ways where one person might sort of be like well this is just a thing I'm just going to do this I'm going to surrender to the fact that this person currently has power over me and like deal with it until we're free.
- friend > Also like, if someone identifies you as having something they really need or want, and can't see how to get it without you, they may experience you as coercive
December 8th, 2021
- what is coercion? - from a group chat:
- as for what I mean by coercion, I'm still working on a write-up of this but my current best gloss is that coercion is "the exploitation of the scarcity of another, to force the other to behave in a way that you want"
- so if people have a scarcity of food, you can coerce them by feeding them conditional on them doing what you want (this is usually called slavery, and requires you physically prevent them from feeding themselves any other way)
- (in general, use of coercive strategies means preferring that the other continue to be generally in a state of scarcity, because otherwise you would be unable to continue to control them)
- most people in our societies have a scarcity of money, and many jobs involve taking advantage of people having such scarcities, in order to get them to do whatever the boss wants them to do (to the extent the boss can actually measure this)
...it's pretty clear to me and I think to most people that this is pretty limited in how well it can motivate people to do anything remotely creative or hard to measure - this is to be contrasted with someone who is technically skilled and enjoys their work and has lots of job opportunities—such a person is somewhat immune to such exploitation because they can seek out self-directed work they would want to do anyway, rather than bending to serve someone else's will even though they don't enjoy it, because otherwise they'd starve
- but by and large a lot of the coercion that occurs isn't with any readily-quantifiable resource like food or money, but rather with social regard: people feel a scarcity of social well-being, love, respect, and interpersonal okayness more generally, so others can control their behavior by withholding these social goods until/unless the person does what they want.
- but again, use of such a coercive strategy requires that the person be in a chronic state of not-enoughness; otherwise you can't control them. this is incompatible with enlightenment and advanced stages with development, as far as I can tell, not to mention being at odds with overall health & well-being
- meanwhile, people have other noncoercive motivations for wanting to do the sorts of things we think we need to coerce them into:
- 1. personally if I'm in a circle and someone points out that I'm doing something that's getting in the way of group coherence, then I want to untangle that for entirely selfish reasons: group flow is fucking ecstatic and wonderful and I want to experience it as much as possible
- 2. if someone I'm living with wants me to be quiet at night so they can sleep, then even though I love loud music and staying up late, I'm inclined to find a way to satisfy them (while also satisfying myself as much as possible) because I want them to be happy and I want them to enjoy living with me and my life is better to the extent that the people living with me are happy overall and glad to be living with me
- and to the extent that my motivation is oriented towards actually making group flow work and actually making my housemate or partner happier, from intrinsic motivation, not just avoiding shame, then I'll be creatively attempting to actually find win-wins here, rather than goodharting, virtue signalling, and/or trying to avoid getting caught doing the thing people don't like
December 7th, 2021
- case study of getting someone to watch a video
- super bad but maybe not coercion - pinning them down clockwork orange style
- obvious coercion - paying them to watch it
- subtle coercion - "what, you haven't seen X?!" - exploiting scarcity of social
- not coercion - "oh this video relates to this thing you mentioned, I can send you a link"
- Jared Lucas > yeah, algorithms on social media
- Daniel Schmachtenberger was saying that one thing to optimize for might be "the inverse of addiction"
- in order for a system to be unexploitable, attempts to exploit it must inevitably wind up serving it
December 1st, 2021
- Toward a Theory of Coercion
November 26th, 2021
- tons of amazing stuff in MESM convo today
- connection with in the meantime
- further thoughts on this:
- mechanisms of control
- fear
- guilt
- shame
- case studies:
- partner dance
- contact improv
- west coast swing
- other partner dance styles
- parenting
- infants
- kids
- teens
- jobs & UBI
- BDSM
- slavery
- animals
- notes from convo w a friend
- I feel like I understand it quite precisely: the attempt to control another's behavior by withholding something they want or need until they do what you want them to do
- (well, or your own behavior)
- ah yeah, maybe put better is something like "creating a problem for someone until they do what you want"
- (reward is just the temporarily relief of chronic punishment, in terms of conditioning)
- & where withholding comes in is that you may not have actually *created* the problem for them, you might just be taking advantage of it
- eg if someone starts out poor or lonely, and you aim to coerce them by saying you'll give the money or friendship but only if they do what you want, you didn't create their problem in the first place but you're sort of exploiting it
- another complexity is that like, some things are sort of structurally conditional?
- like maybe you're happy to cook me dinner but only if I buy the ingredients
- is this coercive? I thiiiink there's a way to disambiguate it
- if you're completely broke, and I offer to buy you food on the condition you cook it for both of us, that's.... maybe-probably coercive
- but I think in no other circumstances is this coercive unless there's guilt/shame-based manipulation going on under the hood
- because like, neither of us has to
- it's just like "hey, would this be a win-win?"
- and there's also something like, even in that situation, if I'm like "I really want you to be able to eat... hmm... I don't have time to make food, so I'm currently spending money on eating out, but I could save that money and thus afford more groceries, if you can prepare it"
- then there's a sense in which I'm strategizing to find a way to solve your problem that might work for you
- whereas if I'm like "hmm I definitely want a chef, hey who's someone who's desperate enough that I can get them to cook for me?"
- but even there it's pretty subtle, and there's also nothing wrong with wanting to solve your own problems
- AH! the point is something like,
- in the coercive world, I *prefer* for the person to exist in a state of desperation,
- so I can keep exploiting that situation (/person)
- whereas in the collaborative/creative world, I prefer for the person to exist in a state of abundance,
- from which I expect us to be able to find even better win-wins
- friend > desperation ↔ coercion
- me > sounds right yeah
November 24th, 2021
- I had a really great articulation related to noncoercive parenting
- sort of a response to something Selentelechia asked about
- re changing diapers and noncoercive parenting
- and about how coercion is different from control
- using the lens of control systems & PCT
- withholding stuff
- constraints are also different from coercion
- (in the context of eg creativity)