learning relationship
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June 17th, 2023
- > something happens at a different point... there's a different atmosphere... a possibility of understanding things in a different way
- ...definitely some part of me that is guarded towards Jean-as-teacher, being on this stoa call with Liminal Space Agency folks
- which is interesting in the sense that nobody is even saying that!
- but it is obviously super relevant
- I really like the written piece: somebody has to point something out
- "give transmission"
- but doesn't have to be an ongoing teacher
- although there's a puzzle of like... who guides you into which meditation practices etc?
- that's another big challenge for me ofc
- > 3 elements of eG
- receptive presence
- ethical maturity
- personal autonomy
- I'm getting the sense that Jared is a founder/designer of the eG container, but maybe started in a student role along some other dimension? while codesigning it with Charlie? not sure this is accurate but seemed worth asking about? because it implies neither a single-hierarchy model nor an egalitarian model
- mmm this is sort of a general puzzle/challenge with scaling mysticism in general while keeping it alive and not having it turn into a kind of "dead" religion
- David Chapman > esoteric & exoteric scaling
- > exoteric pretty easy:
- > courses, guided processes
- > can be systematized & made available to vastly more people should vastly more people want them
- esoteric...
- (part of the puzzle as I see it is something like "who is qualified to give transmission?" and "who is qualified to say who is qualified to give transmission?" ...and of course from a dzogchen perspective this is also sort of a non-issue because *every* experience is a transmission if you know how to look 😆)
- Andrew Connor > witnessing the learning process is very helpful
- Charlie Awbery > metasystematicity
- traditionally, being trained in a very particular system (eg chemistry)
- but very few contexts where individuals are being facilitated in their own metasystematic learning
- transmission
- Charlie Awbery > I relate the word transmission to communities of practices
- the way embodied learning is transmitted from one generation to another generation
- something that occurs through relationship
- wang - magical power in ritual from lama... powers through the unenlightened mode of the student
- drawing primarily on yogic/village practice
- constantly integrated
- going to cave for a couple hours
- but constant movement between personal practice and creating these little containers/retreat experiences, moving back into ordinary life
- David Chapman > vajrayana > spiritual & other stuff not separate
- > sitting in a cave is actually a second-place substitute for doing things in daily life
- "chöd" is pronounced much like "should" (but voiced first consonant)
- vividness in every relationship
- how to see every conversation as an opportunity for transmission?
- upcoming kaleidoscope course
- connection with "learning relationships"
- M > practice of seeing everyone as buddhas
- C > practice of "pure view" or "pure vision"
- aspects of risks
- M > risks whether you're orienting with a "learning relationship" energy to a skilled practitioner vs a random guy at a bus stop
- C > our approach is bounded contexts for doing that
- just for the sangha
- or just for the duration of the retreat
- we're going to enter in a particular way of being in relation to each other
- that is characterized by this utter regard & assumption that the other is being the best possible self and that they are inherently fundamentally okay
- everyone is already always totally alright
- but lots of other views, eg Christian view of sinners
- timeboxed sandboxed retreats/gatherings
- "assuming that we're not out to get each other"
- (huh, I feel like I could give a talk to eG on this from an NNTD perspective)
- my view is more selfish haha
- everybody's behavior, including neuroses, is an opportunity for me to integrate my own wisdom
- my own distrust of them is my own wisdom
- J > can be a specific deliberate practice of seeing people a particular way
- developing an appreciation for a way of being
- "natural" experience
- you could be not trying at all to see people as perfect in some strange way
- but as a result of your practice, you find yourself doing that
- so can be both formal/deliberate or spontaneous/natural
- august 6-10 — eG having a community retreat (those dates open to public)
- first big retreat
- KD & NR would say at beginning of their retreats
- one > the only rule is kindness
- other > the only rule is awareness
- some principles of eG
- curious skepticism
- skillful disagreements
- expressing doubt
- (these remind me of recent RealTalk exploration)
- zen phrase
- all beings ceaselessly preach the dharma
- M > khordu khandro mangpo khor
- both terrifying and benevolent+desirable, and can teach you in both forms
- J to Charlie > you weren't acting like a teacher, you weren't displaying as a teacher
- I like the word "displaying" here
- C > if you swap out "teaching" for "communicating"...
- ...everything is communicating, all the time!
- in different states of awareness, more communication becomes available
- C > we talk about personal autonomy, and people think they have it
- but if you look, you can see how ALL THE TIME people are looking for permission etc
- M > "I hereby give you permission to not ask for my permission"
- "oh - I'm scared"
- or default contentiousness - can't get off the ground
- M >
- some retreats I've been to (not meditation per se but adjacent)
- DWYW, AHC
- play