original spin
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12 linked references
June 20th, 2024
convo w Michael "Valentine" Smith › does it grow corn? › "problems are problems you can tell for yourself before y…
- original spin — in spirituality, the "your resistance is a problem"
- you can't tell that it's a problem until they're telling you so
- and then the only way you can tell is they're telling you
- which is giving you a solution to a problem you couldn't tell you had before they gave you a solution
- me > but sometimes it's "the reason you're hurting is your resistance"
- which has a different issue, not this one
convo w Michael "Valentine" Smith › does it grow corn? › = is it solving a problem that exists without other minds? › "what's the real problem when you factor out the solution…
- "what is the problem that is being solved, by the solution that is being abstractly described as removing original spin?"
- I mean, shoulding yourself in the foot
December 15th, 2023
- rec1 9:30
- > death doesn't bring meaning to life. love brings meaning to life. death makes it easier to open calcified parts of our hearts. and part of how it's able to do that is because it's horrible
- "that you will be flung in harder if you don't choose to go"
- "I'm not going to buy into anything that claims I have to buy into it"
- rec2 10:05
- "oh god, I'm doing the apology thing again, oh no!"
- "punishing yourself even though it's not visible, to make it easier to remember that it's not a move you want to make"
- "you don't deserve X" / "you shouldn't want X"
- "what if good is good and bad is bad and you just admit it"
- supercoop
- (stuff around original spin)
November 28th, 2023
- Mal's recent thread
- epicycles
- ego psy-op insight: there's nothing wrong with me
- (huh... god-shaped hole... superorganism-shaped hole)
- anorexia - not just a misperception of the body but a judgmental & shouldy one
- not hedonism but anti-anti-hedonism
- MO > if you don't know why the pain is worth it, don't do it
- MS > tough love is category error
- MS > you cannot morally fail
- snake cult stuff - link
- for your own good, I'm going to let your process run however it needs to here
- believing in sin
- there's a flaw in you - this graspiness - and you cannot have what you want until you purify yourself of this sin
- ego as guard of id
- superego would love a trick to neutralize or control the ego
- LINK: the superegos have gone crazy malcolmocean.com/2023/07/superego-conflict-and-evolution/
- "I am trying to take care of my needs... but there's something wrong with my nature?"
- (I = ego, my nature = id)
- original sin making the id wrong
- we're obligate symbiotes with culture/groups
- what it would be like for a church ceremony to be a haka?
- MO > I think the haka has a cleaner id/superego relationship than the catholic church is willing to admit
- noticing for yourself that you have done something that hurts the group
- toddlers sin all the time
- but if you're behaving like that but you could know better...
- 2 issues with "all values go down to the id"
- not sure where id bottoms out
- PCT
- intrinsic reference levels
- highest-level principles etc
- which you can be trying to fulfill without tracking how they all cache out or something
- culture can put psy-ops here
- wait, although they're powered by injecting pain into the intrinsic reference levels somewhere
- getting you to whip yourself
- (tho why doesn't this get reorganized away?)
- intrinsic reference level for being in sync w superegos???
- oh, trying certain strategies on certain other levels is verboten
- peoples' inherent drive to fuck around and find out gets linked up to pain as well
- MS > Deutsch talks about how anti-rational memes attack curiosity and creativity
- empathy, caring about others
- animals etc
- "why would I ever be tempted to override what I want for the sake of an argument"
- "maybe I'm wrong about what good is"
- looking at base drives and wondering if some of them are wrong and need to be fixed
- flickering gate
- I don't want to die but maybe I have to and if I don't find a way to want to by the time I have to then maybe I go through something even worse, so I need to find a way to want to die
- huh, "I can tell for myself" has the recursive quality, which animal gnosis doesn't
- 5:27pm MS explains from scratch
- should I feel bad?
- pain from
- recognition of not having been present
- + sense of "shouldn't have lost track"
- psy-op gets us to assume the pain is about the failure, NOT about the should
- shouldn't-have energetic signature, tied to threat of connection being lost
- parent experiences the same shouldn't-have pain / badness / (unhandledness)
- extra-ness to this
- parent hurting because adding something extra
- but makes the same error of assuming it's about the kid
- 2nd arrow meme
- but then this meme gets co-opted by the psy-op
- MS > afaict, what seems to be making me rapidly immune to this thing
- is like NO, I don't compromise that part of me
- previously was trying to look for the right principles
- the 2nd arrow's pain matters too
- MO > I fucking hate how people use words like illusion & delusion
- MS > andrew holochuk
- gave a much more helpful breakdown of where that word could be useful
- tibetan dream yoga
- dreams are not as real as physical world
- physical world is not as real as <something else>
- clear light mind
- emptiness, hollowness
- illusoriness is gesturing at that
- you have fallen for the illusion
- real = solid, independent, and lasting
- thinking things are solid, lasting, independent
- reifying without recognizing that you're reifying
- of course this pain matters because all pain matters because that's what pain is
- I am not here to endure pain for the sake of some greater good
- ALSO you are free to suffer the pain from the 2nd arrow as long as you feel like it
- alternative: 2nd arrow's pain matters too, so you shouldn't've done it
- but other alternative is to leave that part unnamed, which lets the psy-op creep in again
- there's not a principle "get out of pain asap"
- there's just "pain hurts" and a natural inclination to move out of it
- because FOR THE ID!
- "I don't want that. that hurts"
- from the core: what is an alternative?
- it's okay for me to make mistakes
- not just "because I'm learning"
- I can fuck up this way for the rest of my life and it's okay
- it's okay means "I will still back me. I will not back the idea over me."
- inverse of believing there are morals and that I need to become a moral/better person
- range of coordination moves based on being shamable
- "Val doesn't care about coordination"
- an attempt by an adjacent meme
- means by which coercive superegos dom/coopt egos
- MO > ego as interface
- MS > huh, why did the interface become self-aware?
- MO > arguably superego/culture is self-aware... but it's gloopier whereas there's a decent stable-ish fixed-point for the ego: the body of the person; their perspective
- ego getting obsessed w dao, paradox, etc, is ego being confused by this psy-op
- not to say there's a mind configuration that is free of every paradox
- naming this whole thing...
- MS > I often name based on history
- MO > "the original psy-op"
- seems like maybe the other psy-ops emerge from this
- tie-in with original sin
- MS >
- issues...
- if we find an even prior one, this name will be really unfortunate
- psy-op intentional
- "the original spin"
- MS > is the inclination to back the narrative that is attached to the cause of pain, over the part that is being hurt
- MO > inclined to say "disowning"
- MS > not all cases, sometimes more like "I can't help myself but I've gotta find a way to stop"
- MS > is the draw to back the narrative around why the pain is there, instead of backing the part that is being hurt
- MO > pressure
- adaptive entropy link
- gen3 OS vid link